Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What happened to R6, where are the R6 cars?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • What happened to R6, where are the R6 cars?

    Running the GT class is expensive. Think it through...here is a class where there are no limits as to what you can do to a car...and at the the same time optimize the weight to HP ratio to be at the top of the class. Let's say you have a post 1990 car, 964 or 993, one a J class car and the other a K class car. If you decide to go into GT, you'll need:
    A. Suspension, up to $10,000, that is what a JRZ system with springs + labor can cost.
    B. Close ratio transmission, budget from $6,000 to $10,000
    C. Two (2) sets of wheels, another $3,000 to $5,000
    D. Header/muffler system, another $1,500
    E. Change the ECU, about $1,000
    F. Change over to monoball suspension, on a 993 $2,200 for the rear + close to the same for the front.
    G. Slicks, about $1,500 a set

    So far, to make the car competitive, at the top of the class, you'll spend over $30,000, ouch...well who said racing would be cheap. Some folks would rather remain with the "alphabet" system, where expenses can be much more moderate. So if the cost to run "alphabet" is relatively cheap, and I am looking specifically at
    R6, where are the cars? They have mostly vanished...why? Weight, it's all about weight, or lack thereof. The 84-89 Carrera JP car, is 413 Lbs lighter than a 964 JP car, and 553 Lbs lighter than a 993 KI car. The 964 must over come the weight disadvantage with 35 incremental HP, the 993 has to do it with a pitiful 24 HP...guess what, it can't be done.

    In the rare cases where the 993 has been competitive in R6, the cars were either eventually DQ's or left R6 for GT4 or GT5. I have gone to GT5..so I really don't have a "dog in this fight", I simply would like to see R6 come alive again and bring in some later model cars such as the 964 and the 993 models. There are only two ways to do this "on paper":

    1. Add 200 Lbs to the 964 and 84 - 89 Carrera cars to level the playing field across the class.This would give the 84 - 89 Carrera a Weight to HP of 13.265, the 964 a weight to HP of 13.060 and the narrow body 993 a weight to HP of 13.41. No this would be a horse race, BUT, adding weight to a car in POC is close to a
    sacrilege, and it rarely happens. When the V4/R6 guys lost their 2 point narrow body exemption, and they had to add 70 Lbs., these V4/R6 cars simply vanished, most going over to V3/R5. Also note, we seldom see a standard 964 car..we have seen a few 964 RS America K class cars, but these cars are rare and getting expensive.

    2. Move the 993 car to "J" class, where it can lose 100 Lbs, giving it a weight to HP of 12.321, competing against the 84 - 89 Carrera at 12.334 and the 964 car with a weight to HP of 12.26.

    I have an EXCEL Spread sheet that supports my arguments...but I'll be darned if I can attach it to this post. BTW, I have never seen a more difficult process to attach a file as I have experienced on the POC Forum. If anyone is interested, and I sincerely doubt they are, e-mail me and I'll send it to you: mfschacht@gmail.com

    I have sent a copy of this note to Steve Parker, just as I did last year. For the life of me I cannot understand why the Club doesn't want to revitalize the "alphabet" classes.

  • #2
    You're not looking at this on an apples to apples basis Martin.

    Easiest explanation for why the 3.6 cars aren't competitive in R6 is because nobody has bothered to properly develop one. I can tell you that the estimated aggregate cost you have for a GT car would be wholly inadequate for a podium alphabet car (namely JP).

    The most salient point here is the motors; the 3.2 variant motors are very, VERY expensive pieces of machinery and a large component of why they dominate the class. If a competitor decided to build a "stock spec" 3.6, the bhp would be between 265-285, which would then give the newer cars a power to weight advantage over the 3.2's that max out at 225 with stock spec internals.

    The aforementioned is reason enough to leave the structure alone. If we really wanted to pull hairs, I could argue the 3.6's should have weight added because (again, on an apples to apples basis) they:

    Have a better power to weight
    Have improved suspension geometry
    Have improved suspension components
    Have larger brakes
    Have wider tires
    Have significantly better aero (including leading edge wing on the 993's)

    I would love to see more cars in R6; just need to be sure the cars are given a level playing field.

    Best-

    Jack
    Jack Ehrman
    #312 (Dark Gray Carrera w/ Orange Trim)
    JP/R6

    Comment


    • #3
      R6 Scenarios.pdfMiracle of all miracles, I was able to attach the pdf file (I think). Please review...it is the core of my argument. And BTW, attaching a file to a POC Forum post is nearly counter intuitive.

      First thing, Jack, thanks so much for taking the time to put your thoughts on paper. My lengthy reply to your post is a result of a case of light insomnia...up at 3:00 AM. I have addressed your points to the best of my ability. I have been running a 1997 993 with POC since 2001. Started out as a KI car. Most of my rebuttal is "tongue in cheek". There is no way that the Comp Committee will accept added weight to the 84 - 89 Carrera car (Details below). All 993 troubles go away if the car is moved to J class as was done several years ago with the non-RS America 964 car. And what did that accomplish? Not much...the 964 cars never showed up..as you will see in my spread sheet, the 964 cars, as is seen with the 993, have to carry too much weight to be competitive in J class. Pleased read through my response and see what you think. The other reason we don't see many 993 cars, they seem to be growing in value, as are the 964 RS America cars. Why butcher them to make them into race cars?


      Originally posted by Mehoff View Post
      You're not looking at this on an apples to apples basis Martin.

      Easiest explanation for why the 3.6 cars aren't competitive in R6 is because nobody has bothered to properly develop one. I can tell you that the estimated aggregate cost you have for a GT car would be wholly inadequate for a podium alphabet car (namely JP). Not developing a car to the class? This simply is not true...several people have developed these cars, Jeff Schmidt and Tawfik Benabdejalil. Both are much better than average drivers. On a few occasions, Tawfik did very well in R6, Jeff was a contender too, but both have been gone for several years. Jeff finally got tired of beating his head against the wall driving a car 500+ Lbs ahead of his V4/R6 competitors. The V4 cars added a little weight to ease into R6, and sported the 60" wings. The section in the GCRs that allowed the wings has since been deleted and perhaps for this reason, these cars too have evaporated. I too attempted to develop a KI/R6 car, to no avail...I did get a 3rd place trophy for my efforts in 2010, I believe was the year, but that was a result of the "real" 3rd place guy not having enough service points. The trophy was bitter sweet.

      The biggest challenge when running an Improved car against a Prepared car, weight and suspension. 500+ Lbs. negative delta is nearly impossible to overcome. Look what happened when the V4/R6 cars (JP cars with a 60" wing sporting a few extra Lbs. over JP) were required to add 70 Lbs to keep their wings, these cars went over to V3. Was it the weight that drove them there? Can't say for certain, but regardless, they are gone and out of R6.

      I completely agree, it probably does cost in excess of $30,000 to develop a R6 car. Fresh motor at about $10,000, close ratio geared tranny, in the same price range, de-cambered front struts, trick shock absorbers, big torsion bars, trick sway bars and drop links, the cost to strip out the interior, etc., all of this not cheap, and in the final analysis, you get a fully developed race car. Here is the rub, again Mr. Mehoff, the KI/R6 car that competes against this race car, is an Improved car, street legal, with for all intents and purposes, a contestant from The "Biggest Loser" in the passenger seat.

      The most salient point here is the motors; the 3.2 variant motors are very, VERY expensive pieces of machinery and a large component of why they dominate the class. If a competitor decided to build a "stock spec" 3.6, the bhp would be between 265-285, which would then give the newer cars a power to weight advantage over the 3.2's that max out at 225 with stock spec internals.

      Do you think the 964 and 993 motors are not "VERY expensive pieces of machinery"? Try rebuilding a 964 or 993 motor, similar cost, north of $10,000. The 84 - 89 Carrera dominates the class because that's all that is in the class. The have dominated because of a superior weight to HP ratio (See below). There have been good drivers in the class as well. Your figures, 225 HP in a 3.2 motor with stock internals...take the 2,650, the approximate minimum weight for a JP car and divide it by 225, you get a weight to HP ratio of 11.77. Contrast this to a 993 at 3,205 993 KI car weight and divide it my stock HP to the rear wheels of 239, and you see 13.41. And I must ask, who in their right mind would re-build a stock 964 or 993 motor to run in an Improved car. I also believe you are way off on your estimate of what HP can be produced by a 993 motor. 265 BHP equates to 311 HP at the crank, assuming a 15% power loss. Likewise, 285 BHP equates to 335 HP at the crank. This range of HP is NOT available from a stock internals 993 motor. And lets not forget, the KI cars must run with their catalytic converters and misc. smog equipment.


      The aforementioned is reason enough to leave the structure alone. If we really wanted to pull hairs, I could argue the 3.6's should have weight added because (again, on an apples to apples basis) they:

      Have a better power to weight (Not true, see above)
      Have improved suspension geometry (Suspension is better, but in Improved, you must run street suspension, either M030 (RoW) from Porsche or Bilstein PSS 9/10 Suspension.
      Contrast this to unlimited size availability for 84- 89 Carrera torsion bars. M030 (RoW) linear springs are approximately 150 front/300 rear, believe it or not, the totally stock 993 springs are about the same..the M030 (RoW) springs are shorter to allow for lowering the car. I have put both iterations of these spring compressor. The PSS 9/10 non linear springs with tenders are approximately 250 front/450 rear under full compression. But once again these are "street" suspension, NOT race suspension that are seen on the 84 - 89 Carrera JP cars.
      Let me add one more fact derived from my personal experience. I just put 600/800 Lb springs on my 993...based on what I experienced this past weekend at Buttonwillow, there simply is no comparison to a street stock suspension.

      Have improved suspension components Components? Do you mean struts and shocks. I would like to see your evidence of this.
      Have larger brakes True, but try stopping a 3,205 car on small brakes.
      Have wider tires The 84 - 89 Carrera, on 8" front and 9" rear can run 245s on the front and 275s on the rear. The 993 because of wheel well space considerations, can run 245 fronts and 285 rears...so I admit to a 20mm tire width advantage, but 20mm? That is not a deal breaker.
      Have significantly better aero (including leading edge wing on the 993's) The 84 - 89 Carrera with a front air dam and the typical RSR tail seems to have worked quite well in JP/R6. The "leading edge" wing is the Aero Kit wing...it helps over the stock tail, but not dramatically. Only two of us (993 guys) have bothered with the Aero Kit tail. Tawfik was the first, when he pulled out of KI/R6 he sold me the wing. I have pulled out of KI/R6, off to GT5. The wing sits in my garage. I have been trying to sell it for months. PCA Club Racing allows this tail in their Stock class...I would think that someone would want the Aero Kit tail in my garage, no takers. You interested?

      I would love to see more cars in R6; just need to be sure the cars are given a level playing field. Due primarily to the light weight of the 84 - 89 Carrera car, and the easily achievable 215 HP to the rear wheels with headers and a chip, the so called playing field is heavily tilted in favor of the 84 - 89 Carrera. And this will remain the case far into the future. Why? The Production weight is the basis upon which the V3/R5 cars are developed. Does anybody think that the V3/R5 guys would accept an additional 200 Lbs? Never happen. If you can now see there is an inequity in R6 faced by the 993 cars, the easiest way to level the playing field is to move them to J class. This way they could compete as a JP/R6 car, and benefit from:
      Losing 100 Lbs
      Aftermarket tail sans leading edge (I actually don't know of any such tail being commercially available.)
      Big springs
      Race struts and shocks with adjustable spring perches that would allow the car to be lowered to 100mm off the deck. Presently this cannot be done with any 993 street suspension available
      Close ration tranny
      Remove the catalytic converter (Improved cars need to have their smog equipment)
      Delete the air-conditioning
      Delete the sun roof
      Add slicks if the six (6) points are available
      With any remaining points, take out more weight

      But anybody that would do all these things, I would think would move over to GT5. There anything goes, no "alphabet class" restraints, simply weight to HP. That's why I am there. Will I be successful? Who knows...but at least in GT I can do anything I want to the car as long as I can meet the weight to HP minimums.





      Best-

      Jack
      Last edited by mschacht; 05-19-2013, 12:01 PM.

      Comment

      Working...
      X